HCC Guidelines

[Tim and June]

Just thought some might be interested, I have now got the final draft of the guidelines as required for caches placed on land owned or managed by Hampshire County Council Countryside Services.

They are so close to those already applied by Geocaching, we have lost very little, if anything.


Ensure the cache container is clearly marked, stating that the content is harmless and giving the placers e-mail address or other contact method.
Only items that would be deemed safe and acceptable for an unaccompanied child to find should be placed in the cache.
No cache may be placed in such a way as to risk damage or disturbance to any Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) or Scheduled Ancient Monument (SAM). Protect our heritage.
When placing a cache on a right of way, the onus is on the placer to seek the permission of the landowner.
No items of food or drink of any kind should be placed in the cache.
Caches must not be buried. Holes must not be dug in order to place a cache.
Caches must not be hidden in animal holes or runs.
Cache containers must not be placed inside a polythene bag.
Fences should never be crossed when placing or seeking a cache.
No caches should be of a commercial nature, either in location or content.
After placing a cache on countryside sites, the site manager must be informed to ensure that the cache does not compromise the management of the site.
Maintenance of the cache is the responsibility of the placer.
When leaving the cache site, after finding or hiding a cache, there must be no visual sign of disturbance.
For reasons of safety and security Hampshire County Council discourage geocaching on their land during the hours of darkness.
Please do not bring geocaching into disrepute, never drive your car anywhere other than on the highways and byways, and always park sensibly in approved places only.



Bear in mind that these are only for HCC land, but obviously, they would make very reasonable guidelines for the whole of the UK, there is only one point missing which is that no caches should be placed in or an a dry stone wall, but Hampshire doesn't have any dry stone walls. :rolleyes:

[Bill D (wwh)]

Progress! Well done, T & J, and thanks for persevering with this!

Those guidelines seem absolutely fine to me - there's certainly nothing there that I would take issue with.

Could you clarify a few minor points in there?

quote:
and giving the placers e-mail address or other contact method.
/quote

Would a url for geocaching.com or gagb.org.uk be an acceptable contact method? I'm reluctant to give out personal contact information, and would prefer not to put one of my email addresses or phone numbers in caches. (I can set up an unlimited number of throwaway addresses, so it's not a problem - I'm just curious).

quote:
When placing a cache on a right of way, the onus is on the placer to seek the permission of the landowner.
/quote

If the guidelines are for HCC land, then does this mean that we need to ask permission from HCC if a cache is on a right of way on their land, but don't need to ask their permission if it's anywhere else on their land?

I don't mean to nitpick, I'd just like to know. :)

[Tim and June]

I realise your'e not nit-picking, no worry.

An email address would suffice, I'm sure, better that it is your email rather than GC.com though. Before all the trouble on the GC.com forums about the GAGB, we were going to issue a phone number for all members to put in their caches (to be used in the event of trouble only). Not sure if this will or will not happen now. :angry:

Right's of way might be managed by HCC (I think all of those in Hampshire are) but the land they cross is actually owned by other persons. Therefore, it would be difficult for HCC to grant you any permission other than the normal use (passage ?) over those rights of way. Really, the permission of the land owner should be sought.

Quite how you can find out who the land owner is, is another matter. No good asking HCC because they most likely won't be able to tell you. (Data Protection Act ?).

Not a complete answer, but, I hope it helps.

Please bear in mind that the guidelines have yet to recieve their final approval, but it is unlikely that much if anything will change.

[Bill D (wwh)]

Thanks, T & J, for the clarifications!

Re the rights of way, I missed the obvious - HCC are responsible for all rights of way in Hampshire, not just those on their land, so of course we're talking about permission from landowners other than HCC here.

Re contact details, I'll just use throwaway addresses. I get so much spam and so many (foiled) viruses, together with a liberal sprinkling of crank mail, that I'm almost paranoid about giving out contact info!

[Paul G0TLG]

Huge well done to Tim and June: It's really good to see that the hassles of a few weeks back haven't stunted your enthusiasm for doing a great job on behalf of all of us...

I sympathise - I recently gave up a voluntary job (that I loved doing) with a charity, because of the disproportionate amount of aggro caused by a small number of people. I'm pleased that you're obviously made of sterner stuff than I was!

Paul G0TLG

[Team Paradise]

Well done indeed T&J and all others involved.

One question...


After placing a cache on countryside sites, the site manager must be informed to ensure that the cache does not compromise the management of the site.


Will there be a process or email address or something for this, as I doubt it's very easy to find the 'site manager'.

[washboy]

Well done, T&J :D

At the risk of appearing to be pedantic ( ;) ) I'd like to seek clarification of a couple of points:


Only items that would be deemed safe and acceptable for an unaccompanied child to find should be placed in the cache.
This needs fleshing out with examples of bad things and an indication of how young or old "child" is. I mean, a simple button/badge has a dangerous pin but I'd trust an 8yr-old with one. A bag of marbles could be dangerous for a little child. I accept it should be common sense but not all cache placers are wise in the ways of littluns. I'm not! :unsure:


No caches should be of a commercial nature, either in location or content.
I don't understand how any cache on HCC owned/managed land could be commercial in location. Agreed re content, though.

All in all, I think the HCC conditions are fair and sensible.

It would be good if a list of site managers could be sourced, indicating their respective site locations. That way, perhaps they could be contacted before placing caches. They might have valuable suggestions to make re placement, etc.

[marinor]

Excellent work T&J :D

btw is there any truth in the rumour that Beagle2 is carrying a T&J MKIV for the first Mars cache? ;)

[Tim and June]

Originally posted by Team Paradise@Jun 9 2003, 11:27 PM
Well done indeed T&J and all others involved.

One question...

<snip>

Will there be a process or email address or something for this, as I doubt it&#39;s very easy to find the &#39;site manager&#39;.
If it is a park status, (as most large areas are) the will be a sign at the entrance/car park with a contact telephone number on it.

Early on during the conversations about this, we did ask that there be a single email address or similar method of contact, but they are worried that it might become a major task for one contact point to handle. Once things have settled down perhaps it will work itself out.

The reasoning behind the requirement to contact them was given to us by way of example. On HCC land there are two patches of a wild flower called a red-something-or-other, I think they said these are the only 2 patches in the whole of the UK.

I wouldn&#39;t know the difference between the "red-something-or-other" and a daisy (other than the colour of course) and I&#39;m sure most cachers are the same. If an unknowledgeable cacher like me were to put a cache amongst, or close to, one of these small patches, the result would be a disaster.

I know you didn&#39;t ask for the last bit, but thought it interesting. :rolleyes:

[THE BRAMBLERS]

[QUOTE] Well done indeed T&J and all others involved.

One question...

Will there be a process or email address or something for this, as I doubt it&#39;s very easy to find the &#39;site manager&#39;. [QUOTE]


Thank you Team Paradise, it certainly has been hard work what with drawing up guidelines, presenting them to various committees, organising the Winchester event, re-opening negotiations with Forest Enterprises and even finding time to reach 100 cache finds&#33; :blink:

With regard to your question, there aren&#39;t usually any telephone numbers on the site entrance boards. We are going to produce an HCC web page on geocaching and there will be links to all HCC countryside sites where there will be contact numbers.

David and Debbie

[Chris n Maria]

Big Congratulations to all Involved

Well done folks it is all looking really rather sensible and very constructive.

A couple of question follow from this:
Publicity: How will people know about these guidlines ?

Approvals: How will these guidelines be adopted by the UK approver(s)?

No agenda here - just wondering :unsure:
Chris

[Tim and June]

By Washboy
At the risk of appearing to be pedantic ( ;) ) I&#39;d like to seek clarification of a couple of points:
No worry, this is constructive and so should not be seen as being pedantic.


This needs fleshing out with examples of bad things and an indication of how young or old "child" is. I mean, a simple button/badge has a dangerous pin but I&#39;d trust an 8yr-old with one. A bag of marbles could be dangerous for a little child. I accept it should be common sense but not all cache placers are wise in the ways of littluns. I&#39;m not&#33; :unsure:
I think this is more a case of covering "*ss". And quite reasonably too. I guess it really means things that are generally acceptable should be ok. Drugs (even aspirin) are a no-no as would be alcohol or explosives. I agree that it would be foolish to give the button/badge to a four month old and just as foolish to give a 6 year old a ciggarette lighter. However, it would be very dificult to make rules to cover every possible situation. On the whole, perhaps this is really aimed at the situation which might arise if a cache is accidentally found by unsupervised kids.

The covering *ss bit is the reason for them discouraging caching at night. One of the officers read a cache page which warned about a dangerous situation, (cliff edge or similar) The first log said "Great cache to do at night". If HCC condone caching on their land, they must ensure that they do not condone a dangerous aspect of it.

I don&#39;t understand how any cache on HCC owned/managed land could be commercial in location. Agreed re content, though.
Initially we drew up the guidelines for presentation to HCC as suitable for the whole of the UK, so that wording is ours I&#39;m afraid, as is the dry stone walls mentioned earlier.


All in all, I think the HCC conditions are fair and sensible.


Thank you. I would also like to thank HCC for allowing publication of these guidelines before they are fully approved.

[Pharisee]

Originally posted by Tim and June@Jun 9 2003, 08:44 PM
When leaving the cache site, after finding or hiding a cache, there must be no visual sign of disturbance.


First time I&#39;ve used a &#39;quote&#39; on this forum... Hope I&#39;ve got it right.

Well done guys.

Umm... has anyone got any suggestions as to how we get the stinging nettles to stand up again after we&#39;ve been crashing about in them for ten minutes looking for wild tupperware :P

[Moss Trooper]

Umm... has anyone got any suggestions as to how we get the stinging nettles to stand up again after we&#39;ve been crashing about in them for ten minutes looking for wild tupperware

If you had read between the lines you should have realised that you have to master the art of ho vering.. Upside down&#33;&#33;&#33; :wacko:

[DerekReed]

Originally posted by Tim and June@Jun 9 2003, 08:44 PM
I have now got the final draft of the guidelines as required for caches placed on land owned or managed by Hampshire County Council Countryside Services.

They are so close to those already applied by Geocaching, we have lost very little, if anything.

<snippage>
T & J,

For a while I thought that we&#39;d lost an awful lot :( , but now you&#39;re back here, and Mk4 bears are appearing, it looks like it was only a temporary setback. :D

Good to see you back.

(Oh, and thanks for all your hard work on our behalf.) :D

[washboy]

Originally posted by THE BRAMBLERS@Jun 10 2003, 08:06 AM
We are going to produce an HCC web page on geocaching and there will be links to all HCC countryside sites where there will be contact numbers.
Excellent&#33;

This is exactly the sort of resource which GAGB (whatever its name) should provide. A county-by-county and/or major landowner directory of conditions, guidelines, alerts, news, contacts, etc.

This is a good beginning :D

[The Northumbrian]

Thats fantastic news,lt goes to show how the forming of GAGB is going to be an asset to all , my very grateful thanks for what you are all doing .
Nige :)

[stu_and_sarah]

Wow&#33; You have been working hard. thanks for posting the details of the guidelines so we know what is actually happening.

Thankyou to all those involved with it. It looks like it&#39;s a step in the right direction :D

Sarah
--

[Tim and June]

Appreciate all your thanks you guys, but the real thanks should go to those at HCC for being so proactive in this.

I know other councils will follow suit. :D

Standing ovation for HCC please. B)

[Paul G0TLG]

Clap clap clap&#33;

:D

[DerekReed]

Originally posted by Tim and June@Jun 11 2003, 11:52 AM
Standing ovation for HCC please. B)
I&#39;m with you on this one. Three cheers for HCC. Hip Hip... :D

I can&#39;t wait until Winchester Bash, so that I can add my thanks in person.

(Have tent, booked my leave, and now just have to brave the elements... ) :rolleyes:

[marinor]

way to go HCC&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

:D :D :D

[Teasel]

I have now got the final draft of the guidelines as required for caches placed on land owned or managed by Hampshire County Council Countryside Services.
Sound pretty close to the existing guidelines, well done&#33;


After placing a cache on countryside sites, the site manager must be informed to ensure that the cache does not compromise the management of the site.
Could this notification be something we could ask the GC.com UK cache approvers to do as part of the cache approval process? Even though the cache is the responsibility of the placer, having single points of contact can often foster good relationships between organisations.


For reasons of safety and security Hampshire County Council discourage geocaching on their land during the hours of darkness.
Bad news for D&P then&#33; ;) Seriously, though, are we saying "no night caching" on HCC land, or is it OK to ignore this guideline? (But remember "they told you so&#33;" when you trip over a log in the dark and bloody your nose :) )

[THE BRAMBLERS]

Originally posted by Teasel


QUOTE
For reasons of safety and security Hampshire County Council discourage geocaching on their land during the hours of darkness.

Bad news for D&P then&#33; Seriously, though, are we saying "no night caching" on HCC land, or is it OK to ignore this guideline? (But remember "they told you so&#33;" when you trip over a log in the dark and bloody your nose )

This shouldn&#39;t be bad news for D & P. HCC were quite happy for night caching on their sites, as most of their sites are open for public access 24 hours a day. It was only when one of the senior managers noticed a log on one of the cache pages stating something like, "this is a great cache, but beware if you are taking the kids because they could easily fall off the cliff". The very next log said "this would be a great cache to do at night".

For obvious reasons this sounded the alarm bells and although they can&#39;t stop geocaching at night, they felt it their duty to "discourage" it.

Hope this clears the air on this one. :)

[Tim and June]

Originally posted by Teasel@Jun 11 2003, 09:42 PM
Could this notification be something we could ask the GC.com UK cache approvers to do as part of the cache approval process?
I think the Admin/Approvers have enough on their plate already.

The extra workload would be a major problem.

Imagine the scenario :

73 counties (I think)

Then in each county, various land owners:

Local Authority
English Nature
Forestry Commission
Forest Enterprise
National Trust


To name just a few. How would the approver know who owns which piece of land upon which a cache has been placed, and therfore know who to contact ?

And what happens when, as currently, the USA approve some of our caches ?

Nah &#33; Unworkable we think.

[lovechoc]

Glad Hampshire are being a proactive in this issue as they are in so many outdoor and safety areas. I have worked for them as a teacher and as a D of E instructor.

But I would hate the rules to take all the adventure and choice out of life. I did my first find this week, in which I had to cross a river and negotiate a fairly boggy riverbank near Old Basing. It was wonderful to be out, off the beaten track and have to make choices which I think wouldnt have been life pending for me, but certainly would have meant a long walk home with very wet trousers, or a few cuts and bruises. <_< This is life, if it gets too scary we need to know when to bug out and go home, we need to take responsibility for our choices.

I know what people are saying about kids and safety, I will ensure I warn my friend before he lets his kids venture out with my GPS so he can choose, or I think let his boys decide if they want to risk the trip.

I dont think the nanny state will help us in the long run, when I go out on my mountain bike round the tracks of this wonderful county, I make sure I have as much protection and planning for when I fall off, and I know it will happen and when it does, I know its my fault, my choices will get me home, and if they dont, I will have to deal with it.

Sorry wondering off a bit, I was responding to the message about not doing chaching at night. Does that mean they dont want us to use the paths at night ? I would hate to think my night rides would have to end because they think its too dangerous for me to be out with only a 35w light to help me down the tracks :)

Its lovely out there, we have some wonderful locations and an amazing environment, get out, get your kids out and love it, look after it, but dont cover everything in cotton-wool.

Safety is paramount, but so is the excitement when you push the limits :)

Game on HCC, keep it up, I will.

Lovechoc

[lovechoc]

:o umm, hope that wasnt too rantish :-) heres some nice photos to calm the blood....


http://www.pushdtp.com/images/

some of the landscapes are from round Hampshire :D

lovechoc

[el10t]

Originally posted by lovechoc@Jun 12 2003, 11:05 AM
Does that mean they dont want us to use the paths at night ? I would hate to think my night rides would have to end because they think its too dangerous for me to be out with only a 35w light to help me down the tracks :)

No - as I read it they aren&#39;t banning night caching on their land, just saying that you need to be cautious.

[Lassitude]

:ph34r:

Pid ain&#39;t going to like the rule that suggests caching by night should be discouraged. I always thought night caching was a silly idea anyway :lol:

Thanks for the good work Tim and June.

Chris

[paul.blitz]

Originally posted by Teasel@Jun 11 2003, 09:42 PM

After placing a cache on countryside sites, the site manager must be informed to ensure that the cache does not compromise the management of the site.
Could this notification be something we could ask the GC.com UK cache approvers to do as part of the cache approval process? Even though the cache is the responsibility of the placer, having single points of contact can often foster good relationships between organisations.

There are a couple of problems I could see here:

a) how would the approver know if the cache is on an HCC site anyway?

B) fine if its just HCC, but when it gets to all the other counties, other landowners etc..... that becomes a LOT of work for the approvers to try & do.

I don&#39;t think it&#39;s THAT big an issue to ask the placer to let the relevant landowner (ok, so far, it&#39;s just HCC, but tomorrow the WORLD&#33;&#33;&#33;) know.


Paul

[paul.blitz]

But I would hate the rules to take all the adventure and choice out of life
No, please, they are NOT rules, they are Guidelines&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;


I did my first find this week, in which I had to cross a river and negotiate a fairly boggy riverbank near Old Basing. It was wonderful to be out, off the beaten track and have to make choices which I think wouldnt have been life pending for me, but certainly would have meant a long walk home with very wet trousers, or a few cuts and bruises.

Hey, I KNOW that cache.... I DID get the very wet trousers (and wellies full of water&#33;&#33;&#33;) and I STILL haven&#39;t been back to actually FIND the cache&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;


Paul

[Tim and June]

Bump to the top

[Kouros]

Tim and June - if these are the final guidelines, is there any chance that they could be published elsewhere on the site, as well as in the forums? It seems to me that they might be a little easier to find if they were linked to from the index page, for example.

[Tim and June]

Once the guidelines have been finally approved (hopefully anytime now), we will add them to the site as a proper page.

Appreciate your comments though.

[sonya :-)]

This may be a stupid question and I may have missed something. (This happened once before)

Does the HCC thing extend to Southampton City Council. I&#39;m sure it is obvious that SCC is a unitary authority, but in Hampshire. :unsure:

Whaddyareckon?

[Mr &amp; Mrs Hedgehog]

I see that HCC have these guidelines on their website already see
[/URL]

They even have a few more pages on geocaching as well. Well done to HCC :D They do seem to be a very community friendly org.

Thanks to T&J for their efforts in this area as well.



[ Admin edit
Sorry guys, HCC have asked that we remove the link because the pages are not in the correct location and should not be publicly available. ]

[Tim and June]

Originally posted by sonya :-)@Jul 1 2003, 12:54 PM
This may be a stupid question and I may have missed something. (This happened once before)

Does the HCC thing extend to Southampton City Council. I&#39;m sure it is obvious that SCC is a unitary authority, but in Hampshire. :unsure:

Whaddyareckon?
Dunno &#33; :angry:

I will be speaking to them later on, I&#39;ll ask and post it here.

[Tim and June]

Originally posted by Mr & Mrs Hedgehog@Jul 1 2003, 12:55 PM
I see that HCC have these guidelines on their website already see


They even have a few more pages on geocaching as well. Well done to HCC :D They do seem to be a very community friendly org.

Thanks to T&J for their efforts in this area as well.
Oh WOW &#33;

We&#39;ve been waiting for that to appear.

Thanks HCC

[Mr &amp; Mrs Hedgehog]

Originally posted by Tim and June+Jul 1 2003, 01:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Tim and June @ Jul 1 2003, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--sonya :-)@Jul 1 2003, 12:54 PM

Does the HCC thing extend to Southampton City Council. I&#39;m sure it is obvious that SCC is a unitary authority, but in Hampshire. :unsure:

Whaddyareckon?
[/b][/quote]
Speaking as someone who works for a unitary authority I would say no. For example any guidelines that Dorset CC make has no weight here in Bournemouth.

[Tim and June]

we have had confirmation from HCC that what Mr & Mrs Hedgehog have said above is the case.

However, an approach to Southanpton will be much easier once all is settled down.

[sonya :-)]

Excellent. Looking forward to it.

Thanks for all your hard work y&#39;all.

[Mr &amp; Mrs Hedgehog]

Originally posted by Mr & Mrs Hedgehog@Jul 1 2003, 12:55 PM
[ Admin edit
Sorry guys, HCC have asked that we remove the link because the pages are not in the correct location and should not be publicly available. ]
Mr and Mrs H. apologies for the hassle they caused.

[Admin]

Originally posted by Mr & Mrs Hedgehog@Jul 1 2003, 11:38 PM
Mr and Mrs H. apologies for the hassle they caused.
It was no hassle at all, (well not for us anyway).

Thanks for taking the trouble to post the info here.

[Teasel]

Sorry for the delay replying - been a bit distracted by the GC.com changes&#33;

I don&#39;t think it&#39;s THAT big an issue to ask the placer to let the relevant landowner (ok, so far, it&#39;s just HCC, but tomorrow the WORLD&#33;&#33;&#33;) know.
Agreed, but only a tiny proportion of the 2000-odd caches placed so far have gained such permission. There&#39;s a big task ahead if this is to be reversed without stifling the growth of the sport.

But I wasn&#39;t suggesting that the cache approvers take responsibility for informing the landowners, just that they might be able to help with the new requirement that the county council is separately informed.

Currently, only a single person (the landowner) needs to be asked, and cache placers have a very poor record at doing even this. Shortly, in Hampshire to begin with, two separate bodies will have to be contacted each time a cache is placed: the landowners and the site manager. I&#39;m just worried that, even if cache placers are aware of the requirements, they may forget one or both of these.

If there&#39;s only a single site manager (or other contact person) for each county, it shouldn&#39;t be a difficult task to send a monthly notification of all new caches in each county to the relevant person.
Here&#39;s one (http://stats.guk2.com/caches/search_view.php?q=710) for Hampshire&#33; But of course, the site manager would need to be prepared to check the locations to see which ones are on their "patch", as it&#39;s often difficult to find out who owns a piece of land, let alone who manages it.

[THE BRAMBLERS]

Currently, only a single person (the landowner) needs to be asked, and cache placers have a very poor record at doing even this. Shortly, in Hampshire to begin with, two separate bodies will have to be contacted each time a cache is placed: the landowners and the site manager. I&#39;m just worried that, even if cache placers are aware of the requirements, they may forget one or both of these.

Only one body needs to be contacted for each cache placement. HCC, if it&#39;s on one of their countryside sites or the landowner if it&#39;s on a right of way. All HCC countryside sites are clearly marked with a display sign.

[Teasel]

Sorry, my mistake&#33; I&#39;d not realised that rights of way and "countryside sites" were mutually exclusive&#33; :unsure:

I&#39;m still not sure how HCC are going to be notified about caches on countryside sites, since it&#39;s clear that only a tiny minority of cachers are currently seeking permission for their caches. If there&#39;s to be no single line of contact, how are we going to change cache placers&#39; behaviour? Not all of them will be reading these forums&#33;